2 things

[Randy walker]

1, if I did not post it before...Vinnie is on the new Bob James cd........slap me if I repeated this info.
2 my take on this whole debate over DW, Smith and Vinnie.....
I have kept quiet about this issue but will speak out abit, I like Weckl but what I see with him is that although his technique has improved and his feel sounds better to the ears, he still has yet to grow when it comes to his solo material...I mean you could close your eyes and pick any 1 of the 6 discs he has and have them all. Kind of like Spock's Beard cds, Nick DVirgilio is a great drummer but their cds all sound the same. Buy 1 and you have them all. Call Smith sterile when it comes to phrasing on the kit and think what you will about his technique but I truly think it's wrong thinking. I have been listening to him since 77 and he continues to amaze me and he is on all types of cds.........Ray Price (country), Savage Garden (pop) Bryan Adams (rock) Journey, the many releases on the Tone Center label that he started with Mike Varney. He can cover many different styles just likje Vinnie continues to do, but where is Weckl in all of this? DW is actually back to playing the same way he started out with on the Simon and Garfunkal tour, Sabian cymbals and the way he sets his kit with the toms off to the left.
Smith on the other hand has totally evolved from sitting extremly low and cymbals high to sitting higher and toms flatter. Same with VC, he used to sit so low and now he's a tad higher with the toms somewhat flatter and the cymbals not so in the air too.
I respect Weckl for his many accomplishments with Chick Corea and his own solo band, but I still believe Smith and where has been and where he continues to go. I don't find his grip to be that stiff, it's mostly fingers with him.
Take a look and some of the other great drummers whom are no longer with us and see how they constantly evolved, Jeff Porcaro (scary), Carlos Vega and Larry Londin. Carlos was very underated but a master no less at many different styles and chops to boot. Jeff was the same way, his groove can be traced all the way back to his days with Sonny and Cher (thanks Chris), very dead on and his chops were in full back at the age of 17. He continued to grow up until he died. As did Carlos. Larry Londin is another whom was most noted as country but if you listen to him with Adrian Belew on the Twang Bar King cd, well nothing short wow.......Of course his playing on the Steve Perry Street Talk cd and Journeys Raised on Radio were in the chest feel too.
Ok maybe I have rambled too long but just wanted to put my words down. Hey I just got in from San Diego from a gig and have yet to get some sleep............cut me slack!

[palmerlouie]

If your talking about evolution weckl is MR EVOLUTION!!! as we all keep saying they are ALL good! but smith does look unbalanced and plays in a very old fashioned was...good....but old fashioned. Also i have lots of smith's fusion stuff on tone centre and i love the cd's however if u had one of them u really have them ALL! he repeats the same licks over and over and over and over........u get the picture.

weckls rhythm of the soul album i thought was a little weak however the synergy album was solid and good listening! the transition album was fantastic especially in the writing....good melodies etc. his latest album is weak in melodies and has way too much synth stuff in it.....as u said a little back to old chick stuff! however the 3 or so tracks that stand out...REALLY stand out!! they are awesome. check out "tempo di festival"!! beautiful!! the band is written around him and only him really....but hey....he can do that! he is one of the only drummers to be CONSTANTLY evolving.....with smith closely behind cause he evolved with the new technique but that was it...now hes repeating himself as is dennis chambers and also weckl has never been the session guy in the studio or touring he is normally consistantly with one or two bands....each time i see weckl he has new licks, phrasing, and ideas......i have never heard him repeat himself!!!

[Nikk]

Stiff left hand technique? I've really tried to make sense out of this comment. No, Smith is not as Fluid as Weckl (less arm involvement with Smith,) but his left hand form looks beautiful. He has great technique. He just doesn't look as nice as Weckl when he plays set. I think as far as looks go, Dave looks the nicest. Then Vinnie, then Smith (in just considering these three.)

[FuseU1]

Oh dear, here we go again! & here I go, steppin into the foray again, AW. (Randy is basically exempt & allowed 'cuz this is really the 1st time he's commented on this! [img]wink.gif[/img] ]

I thought DW was great back b4 CCEBB1, def. ON CCEB1, & great ever since. & while he IS evolv'g in certain ways, I think he has always maintained an unbelieveble level of consistency, which makes him seem NOT to have [evolved], perhaps[?]; but this makes him stand out in my book. However, on his solo stuff I HAVE heard him parrot certain lix from tune-to-tune/disc-to-disc; however, it's usually phrased differently; that is, he'll start it at diff points in any given measure, or extend it, or whatever. But that's OK - it's HIS style! When u hear it, u know it's him. I can only hope to God that 1 day [w/ a lot more practice!] I can attain his unbelievable level of total musicianship & consistency.

When I saw him w/ CCEBReU not too long ago, MAN - he played the most hip phrases, NEVER repeat'g himself [he does this alot in the course of a night, which makes his 'freshness' that much more scary, because he has to 'out-fresh' his last phrase/tune/performance!] & that meter - sheesh.

I'm not sure where ol' DC [another total bada**] is comin from in his [paraphrased] comments about DW [well, I kinda AM, but I'm kinda NOT also]. DW overplay'g? Heck, ALL these guys can 'overplay' - they can 'overplay' the pants right off your butt any day! But if you're gonna do it, DO IT THE BEST, MUSICALLY - like these guys do!

I've always dug Smith. Awesome player. He'll swing your head right right off your friggin neck, I'll tell ya, to boot. He's an incredible cross between traditional & contemporary swing/bop, & he can cover other styles AW. Great chops, great musicality. Oh yeah, he can OVERPLAY w/ the best of the rest of these guys too, NO DOUBT!

The only other thing is, I don't think his meter is as good as DW's. But u know what? A lotta guys think that's a GOODD thing on his part, so, I dunno! So I say, SO WHAT - he can still play the shirt right off your back - & his documented track record is unparralled - equalled, maybe, but not unparalled. I wish in my lifetime it couldve been so for myself - don't look like it's gonna happen that way, tho. I wouldve had to start 'a lot LONGER' [time] ago [img]frown.gif[/img] ....

I dunno, VC's grip/play'g looks pretty da** good to me [BRMSC2; MDF'00]...altho yrs. ago he said his basic technique 'sucked' [keep that in mind when u hear him RIPPIN on Zappa's 'Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar'...] Has any1 ever noticed that he plays a lot of matched grip on "Z-Day in NY?!" Every other time I've seen him it's been traditional....

& finally, Carlos Vega - awesome player - underrated. As was Larrie [thanx RW for that tip on the Belew CD - havent heard that 1!]. & we all know about Jeff. OK - maybe Jeff's track record beats Smith's [!] LOL [img]wink.gif[/img] ....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 03, 2002 04:01 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[PocketPlayer]

Keeping with the "iron sharpens iron" mindset here, and knowing that this forum is basically a Dave-Vinnie forum, I might add that if we open the door to analyze (not criticise these great players- big difference)we need to keep in mind the 'human element'or 'relational element' outside of music. Look at Dave's playing when he went through his divorce period. He physically looked a wreck when I saw him. Look at him now in his post-honeymoon period...light on his feet. Look at Smith during his divorce period. He hibernated for a period. Read his clinic diary on how hectic life on the road can be;

http://www.hudsonmusic.com/DVD/steve...ithdiary1.html

All to say, life is more than drumming and other factors can heavily influence how we play...both pro & con. These guys are on another planet and I really am in awe of their consistency over a 20 year peroid, despite all the 'stuff' of life. When these guys told mommy they would stick (no pun) with their drum lessons, THEY MEANT IT!

For some 'human' moments, see BRich's thoughts here on players who don't give 100%! Hold your ego in check if you were BR's bass player...geez

http://www.cis.rit.edu/~ejipci/buddy_rich.htm

As for other great drumming...Omar Hakim, Jeff 'Tain' Watts-hugely underrated, Louie Bellson, Morello, Bissonette, Famularo, Chancler, AND...all the cats playing in Holiday Inns that went to music college and have BR chops makin' chump change.

[shedder]

i totally agree. i saw weckl last friday night in nyc with mike stern and victor wooten. after wooten's amazing solo, dave had his moment. after dave's amazing solo, i nearly forgot about victor wooten even playing a solo. that night dave was seriously out of his mind. being a drum student at berklee and seeing all the incredible instructors here, to me dave out shines them all. whoever says dave plays the same thing or isn't evolving probably doesn't know jack shiz about drumming. i've seen dave close to 12 times in the past 2 years with various artists including his own band and his groove and soloing ability gets better, more complex, more colorful, more dynamic and more intense every time i see him. i thought he couldn't do any better than the recent hollywood bowl gig with chick but last friday he proved me wrong. for some reason he seems to play with more zeal when playing for other artists. in my opinion, dave is far better, more complex, more colorful, more fluid, more dynamic, and more intense than steve smith. i still think steve smith is way way way too over rated. i've heard his albums and seen him a few times. not too impressed. whenever i see him play, no matter how cool of a lick he does, i'm always distracted by his ugly left hand technique. stiff as a rock. anyway, vinnie and dave are the two best ever to live on this earth. no doubt about it. maybe virgil too.

[FuseU1]

Great post, Pocket. Thanx for those 2 links - enlightening & educational, to say the least.

I've always 'spoken' of try'g to remember the 'human element' when it comes to approach'g or interact'g w/ any of my work'g musician 'heroes' or peers; there's always a professional protocol to follow, & often one has to 'feel out' the situation. And any1 at any given time could be experienc'g a bad day, fatigue, stress relat'g to tour'g, juggling personal & professional responsibilties, relationship woes, last-minute or schedule changes, jet/car/bus lag, squeez'g in a last-minute call-for-a-gig [as Steve Smith documents in his travelogue diary,] sickness or illness w/ themselves or a friend or family member, death in the family, etc., etc. You never know.

Your last statement on the post was a clincher, AW, as most [if not all] of us have been THERE at 1 time or another.

Know what's funny? BR was considered the best drummer of his time. But I'll tell u this - there were other guys out there at that time who were just as formidable players. 1 I'll name [for expediency's sake] is Sonny Payne. Man could this guy smoke in that 'BR' veign/style, & he had the stick-tricks to boot [more formidable than BR.] I don't think BR had ANYTH'G on this man. But u don't here about him or others NEARLY as much as Buddy. Of course, this involves a whole slew of reasons which I've covered in past posts & I'd rather not go into at this point, because u all can prob. figure most of them out anyway [perpetual 'human' problems.]

Funny thing is, & while I try to be as professional as possible, & as politically correct biz-wise as my stomach & integrity can handle, I'm not gonna hold back on this. Those BR tirades brings forth a touchy, tough issue - a guy I work for frequently has similar problems, which I & others in turn have to deal with. Soon it will be settled, but until then there is extreme tension at moments. & he's VERY good at hiding it & present'g an entirely DIFFERENT image to the 'fans.' It is a downright horror story, cliched straight outta the handbook. Now, I've made a few mistakes in my day [not necessarily talkin about the music], but u own up to it, take your lumps, deal with it, try to correct it, & move on. But there are folks out there who will continually take advantage of any opportunity to chisel some 1 if they think they have the advantage & 'no 1's looking.' [This should prob be a new/diff. post - 1 that prob. should eventually be discussed - the BUSINESS aspect of the music world.]

Anyway, I'm ranting & somewhat digressing, & it's 1/4 to 2 am [bleary-eyed - about sack-time!]...just thot it was a very enlightening post....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 04, 2002 01:47 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[XNavyDrummer]

Some interesting comments from everyone! Regarding the Dave vs Steve fluidity observations, I have two comments;

1) If I'm recalling a Weckl interview correctly, it was Steve's improvement while working with Gruber that inspired Dave to study with Freddie.

2) Dave does emphasize practicing with a mirror and he has commented on the importance of using the mirror to help monitor your visual flow when playing.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 04, 2002 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio (aka XNavy) ]</font>

[PocketPlayer]

Regarding the Buddy audio clips, I must say that these reflect 3% of Buddy. The other 97% was Buddy most knew. I have no prob having him tell the guys no facial hair- it was his band, you worked for him, so that's the way it is. I love a guy who strives to be the best. So, for me, I loved it! The harder the better I always say...unless it gets off the music and onto other personal issues. In the clips, BR is pissed becasue of the performance from the band. Again, it was his gig. Talk about a non-politically represented age. I dig it!

[FuseU1]

What I meant by that BR thing in my last post [I should've clarified better] - I have NO prob. w/ it being his band & he wanted a certain look & a definite musical expertise - & sometimes, a hardline approach is warranted. & ther's def. nothing wrong with striving for the best & expecting what youre due. But [& this is prob. what you'd call gettin' into the 'personal!'] when you work for some1 whom both parties agree on a certain price & then when it's time to ante up drops the quoted tour figure by $1,000[!!] when it's time to pay w/ not only 1 band member, but TWO [& I've since learned other past band members have experienced the same - there are numerous other examples AW] - yet the guy has a 'quality rep' in the 'biz' [simply because he would never dream of crossing/showing his a** to HIS employers.] It is the WAY it is handled which is at issue. Screaming, insulting, manipulation, cursing, in-your-face threaten'g stuff, etc. should have NO place in good business IMO...if a player can't cut the gig, why was he hired anyway?! Just because some1 is hired for a pay'g gig doesn't give the employer the right to berate them, ESP. in front of other people, includ'g band-mates!! That's just low-class & crass. [Then again, this other particular individual doesn't know anything about music - an 'ear' singer.] Things can def. be taken care of in a professional manner w/out all that BS/drama. But then again, we're talkin' about 'people' here, right? [Yeah - in a perfect, Beaver Cleaver/Brady Bunch world.] And a word of warning to the wise - if a prospective employer says "I don't go by contracts - I've never worked that way, I don't sign anything - my word is & has always been my bond" [at the same time contracting himself out in written form, of course] - watch the he** out. [Fool me 1ce, shame on you; twice, shame on me....]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 07, 2002 01:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>